Turning a new leaf – the Self through Wisdom Literature

In investigating the Self (myself) through Wisdom Literature, my first question has to be – ‘am I any the wiser for this long journey?’  And who measures that wisdom, if not myself?  Am I kinder, more worthy of love, a speaker of peace, less likely to judge, than when I was the child .. right now I would have to say no – for I am still the ashes of the phoenix and have not risen yet to be reborn.  So let me use the Wisdom of others to look upon this Self and see where we are now in the Journey of Life, from birth to rebirth, beginning at the ending … where ignorance is no longer bliss.

Condemned alike to groan;
The tender for another’s pain,
The unfeeling for his own.
Yet ah! why should they know their fate?
Since sorrow never comes too late,
And happiness too swiftly flies.
Thought would destroy their paradise.
No more; where ignorance is bliss,
‘Tis folly to be wise.”
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As many people choose to do with the Bible, I quote only a small part at the end of a long poem by Thomas Gray, who speaks of life at Eton College, but could also be speaking about life in general, the highs and lows .. and asks that final question “Yet ah! why should they know their fate?” Which really leads on to the events in Revelation, but also leads back to the getting of Wisdom through the Bible and Apocrypha – Proverbs, Psalms, Ecclesiastes, Job, Wisdom of Solomon, Tobit, Judith, and many more.  Some deny the right or importance of the Apocrypha as a reference to our Spiritual past, but to me they show a broader field of understanding of the people who wrote the words we believe are important in understanding not just God and Jesus, but also the mindset and beliefs of the societies from which they came.
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The getting of wisdom can be a very painful process.  Lessons and learning drop into our laps, from multitudes of sources, but they do not become Wisdom until we learn to turn them inwards and apply them to ourselves.  We do not learn compassion from showing compassion, but only from suffering pain and loss of our own, so that we can step into the shoes of the ‘other’ and share, in some small way, the emotions that are driving their life journey.  We can then ’empathise’ rather than just ‘sympathising’.  Then we can ‘be’ Love (1 Cor 13), rather than just an observer, the clanging cymbal.
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“Christ with me, Christ before me,
Christ behind me, Christ in me,
Christ beneath me, Christ above me,
Christ on my right, Christ on my left,
Christ when I lie down, Christ when I sit down,
Christ when I arise,
Christ in the heart of every man who thinks of me,
Christ in the mouth of everyone who speaks of me,
Christ in every eye that sees me,
Christ in every ear that hears me.”

― St. Patrick

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The password to my mind

Every so often I forget the password to one of the many sites I write on on the internet, and no matter how I search my password book, I cannot find it – and so I am forced to examine myself to create a new password, a new key to the inner voice of Me that is expressed in the various pages of my blogs.

Since I ceased to write on this site more than a year ago the inner me has been tested by fire, and while its still feeling a little singed at the edges, I don’t think I .. or perhaps I did, to some degree .. have the whole phoenix experience, to emerge remade, or was it simply remodeled.

I drift.  I wish I could say it was in a sea of calm, but mostly it is in a sea of confusion, of tested compassion and patience, of wishing and wishful thinking, and wondering where God is in all these adventures.  I drift, as though in a row boat with no oars, sail or rudder, gently, quietly, after all of the rapids .. Do I need a holiday, or is that nearly over?  Is the slowly rising head of boredom a spur to send me down old paths when I thought I was guided to new?  When will the drifting cease, and the fountain of words return, that tell stories and shares thoughts without the struggle of ‘what to say’?  A blank page feels like a closed door right now.

Many years ago I met a nun who’s every greeting began with ‘and where is God in your life today’ .. I am sorry I lost track of her, she moved to Canada (from Australia) to study the ‘Spirituality of St Ignatius’, and left me rather floundering with my own. In the many years since that event, I’ve gone through angry and out the other side.  I’ve gone through broken and been the re-maker.  I’ve gone through a strong desire to change completely, and tried other paths, just to find myself come full-circle, back to where my heart truly is, at the feet of God, wondering ‘what next’ in this crazy adventure I have made of my life.  I … have … made … not God, because, while God is the core of my being, it (or he) is not the chooser of my path.

People say that God has a plan for every person, then stand bewildered when the plan includes them dying young, or in some horrible way, or withering into nothingness bound down by pain and sorrow, and those who are left behind stare at the place God was supposed to be and find it empty, and themselves empty, because God did not keep the promises we think it (he) made .. or worse, we are told that God made the promises, just before we (they) destroy ourselves, because the path has been too hard, or was it that we thought we were simply not good enough?

No, I am not suffering from depression.  Where is the bit I just wrote about being bored?  Boredom and I are not good companions.  I have no patience with bulldust, most particularly my own.  🙂

When I decided to reanimate this blog I took my favourite bible (I have 13 versions of the Christian bible, all different, or is it 14 now) and opened it up to find a password, and then when I didn’t like what I read, I went to one of my favourite passages .. and because I think I have been boring enough, let me copy it here.  You’ll recognise it –

  1. If I speak in the tongues of mortals or of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
  2. If I have the prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
  3. If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
  4. Love is patient, love is kind; love is not envious, or boastful, or arrogant
  5. or rude.  It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;
  6. it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth.
  7. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
  8. Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to the end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end.
  9. For we know only in part and we prophesy only in part,
  10. but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end.
  11. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways.
  12. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we shall see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
  13. And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

I have looked into the glass darkly and only seen myself.  I have touched the darkness with both hands and found only God.  I have been a Spiritual Warrior who desperately wanted to put down her sword .. but no, it is still in my hand.  The Sword and the Words are the same being, according to Revelation.  Are we at the time when we will reveal ourselves truly, or should we just lay down our hearts and say “Dear God help us.  We are lost again”.

The Christians speak of the second coming as an age of miracles when we will be rescued from our own folly.  But why should God rescue us again, when we have ignored, denied, denigrated, destroyed and worse, and been hypocrites in ‘his’ name?  And continue these behaviors without regard for others.  We try to externalize the anti-Christ, when perhaps, we should look within ourselves?  The real mystery is why God continues to love all its (his) creations, and I do mean all of them, even after a millennia of bad behaviour.

So I shall lay down my sword and pick up a pen, or at least type on my keyboard, since my writing is pretty awful most of the time.  You’ll be seeing me.

Love & Peace

Observing Genesis: God and Adam, who created humanity?

God created Adam; we will ignore Lilith for the purpose of this discussion.  We know God created Adam, because he did it twice.  I have to wonder what was wrong with the first version.  That being said, I looked up Genesis and it reads “Let ‘us’ make humankind in our image, according to our likeness …” 1:26 and then in 1:27 “so God created humankind in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.”  The next question that arises is who is ‘us’; who was God talking to in an inclusive manner, which then suggests that it took more than God to create humanity. 

Then there’s the question of ‘male and female’- if God created humanity in its image, there is either more than one God, or God is both male and female.  So what is all the screaming about people worshipping the Goddess?  Surely they are the same energy, having been part of our Creation?  Or is that part of the problem with having a jealous God?  And that was just chapter 1.

Chapter 2 of Genesis says the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground 2:7, but not woman; she came later, when Adam (first man) was lonely.  First God created the animals, then, when Adam was still not satisfied, God put him to sleep, and took one of his ribs (he must have had a spare, because males still have the balance of ribs in their bodies today)and created him a mate/partner.  Interestingly enough, Adam was banned from eating from the tree of knowledge ‘before’ the woman (Eve) was created. 2:16-17

On a side note, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil could not have had seeds in its fruit because God gave all the trees with seeds to humanity for its consumption, but that’s completely off topic.

Moving on to Chapter 3 we have more of the ‘us’ stuff.  Who is God talking to in 3:22 which says “Then the Lord God said, “see, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil,; and now, he might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever” .. so God sent him, and Eve, from the garden.  He ‘drove out the man’ 3:24 and set a cherubim to watch the gate, so that he (they) could never return.  Just to protect us from immortality?

Is God learning from us, or are we learning from God?  He was very angry when he found that Adam had chosen to eat the fruit that Eve had given him, but why have it in the garden if it could create such harm?  Did he consider humanity was not intelligent enough to avoid eating something life changing, so warned Adam away from the tree?  And why put the innocent newly-created human into this garden, which had no animals or birds or fish within it to feed from? 2:15  I guess Adam was vegetarian, or perhaps, as an innocent, he simply didn’t eat?  No, that can’t be right; otherwise Eve would not have considered eating the fruit.  Did Adam only start eating meat once his innocence was gone?  Before that he had dominion over the animals etc 1:26, he was to protect them, not eat them.

Then there is the question of God’s omnipotence.. he didn’t know that Adam had eaten the fruit 3:11 when they hid from him in the garden?  I was always taught that God knows everything I do.  And why curse them so severely because they now knew good and evil?  How did that make them better people?  As to the serpent, surely God knew that it too was in the garden, and the sort of mischief it might get up to? 

What is original sin – disobedience to God?

The first sin was to disobey God, or was it to listen to any voice but His?  Did God decide to take away humanity’s innocence by letting the serpent be in the garden, so that Eve could actually want to go and take the forbidden fruit?  Are we to blame the devil for Eve’s choice to give it to Adam, or does it all come back to God again, for allowing the ‘serpent’ to sneak into the garden in the first place – given that God is omnipresent and omnipotent, and would have known exactly what the serpent was up to.   Here was the first test, which led to so many others.  Here was humanity’s first failure.  God tests His creations, just look at Job?  So the advice ‘do not pick the fruit from the tree’ was a test humanity was meant to fail – how else could God learn about Himself, unless through His own creations.  Can you think of another reason for creating them? 

And where is the sin?  Considering all the factors, didn’t Adam and Eve simply act in the way God wanted them to, so that we could become the ‘learning and growing’ beings we are today?  Or did God actually want humanity to remain within his private zoo?  I can’t see that myself, even the animals evolve ..

Love & Peace, Ama

Why do we keep punishing Jesus?

Jesus was hung on a cross for humanity’s sins. We know he was crucified because we have proof now, but the ‘why’ of this is up for interpretation. Christian folk have been taught that he was an innocent man tortured to save each of us, condemned for no reason but that he spoke out against the Roman dictatorship over the Jewish people, and the churches dictatorship over its own people. Oh yes, he broke a few tables along the way, but he never broke any ‘heads’, so he was calmer and quieter than some of the rabble who called themselves God’s representatives at the time. His message was one of love, peace and forgiveness – but that got lost along the way when the writer of Revelation turned him into the Vengeful Messiah the Jewish folk were craving .. sorry, the Christian folk were craving, after they converted.

Two thousand years later how much has changed? There are still people selling holy relics in the churches, only we call them music CDs and meditation tapes these days (or bits of the stone wall, imported direct from Mecca). Money still changes hands to buy redemption .. only now it’s called ‘give to the churches favourite charity’ (itself?). And our behaviour hasn’t improved, even after all this time, and all the sermons (or lectures) delivered from various pulpits. The Ten Commandments are still being ignored by most people, who go ahead and lust, steal and murder whenever it suits them. How many of them do you think care what God or Jesus will actually do to them after they die? Oh no, they’ve already turned their backs on that belief system .. and even if they haven’t .. the good Christians are murdering the commandments day by day.

I don’t really want to debate the commandments today, even though I think we should all put some serious consideration into re-inventing them. It’s not that they aren’t important, it’s that some of them don’t make sense anymore, given what Jesus taught us about God, and then there’s ‘honouring your parents’ which may end in you being abused by one, or both, of them. So let me get back to the point …

I was listening to Christian radio the other day, happily agreeing with what most of the speaker was saying, until something he said made me realise that we are constantly punishing Jesus. When we choose to sin we are deliberately denying everything he did for us by being hung up on that Cross. The teachings of the church, particularly when I was a child, was that each of us is born into sin .. the sins of our ‘fathers’ (does that make our mother’s relieved?) .. which actually means ‘the sins of our parents’. I have to ask why God would create beings that carried this sin for generation to generation (40 in all?) and how we escape it .. how about the 41st generation .. but no, the sin continues onto and into forever, and we can never be free of it, unless we accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour .. (strange how we are lumbered with sin, but not allowed to benefit from the acceptance of our parent’s heartfelt connection back to God. When does the poison stop spreading through humanity’s veins .. and sin is a poison. It does make us ill). So I accept Jesus as my Lord and Saviour and therefore I am rescued from sin .. in that moment. Ten minutes later I go outside, covet someone’s car or bus or bike, or wife (heaven forbid because I’m female .. and my husband would object :-)) and I am back to being a sinner again.

So I turn myself around, go back into the church, and if it’s appropriate, confess this sin, say the Hail Mary’s or various other prayers we all use to ask for forgiveness and everything is all right again .. until I go outside and, walking home, ‘borrow’ a lemon from the fruit tree down the road (and the sin is not mitigated by making lemon cake and giving the owner half), without asking the owner first. Whoops, there goes sin number eight. Or worse, I tap the statue of Mother Mary on the knee on the way out the door and thank her for everything she’s helped me with (all those prayers) and there’s sin number two, because all thanks should be to God, or so I am taught. And what about if I have to work a shift or two on Sunday .. do I spent Monday on my knees begging forgiveness, not just for that one day, but because I am a repeat sinner. Is the punishment worse if we consciously sin over and over again?

Dear Jesus, who removed the sins of the world (John 1:29) .. turns out you only gave us the grace to turn around and break the rules again. And if you did remove ‘the sins of the world’ why is it that the Christians think you only did it for them?

There are times that I stand outside the Christian faith looking in and wonder what God will truly do to all those hypocrites, liars, cheats and thieves, and that’s just among the clergy. If they are not good enough Christians, and I am only a lay Theologian, what hope is there for me, if I follow their leadership? The church set themselves up as the role model for humanity .. and yet the law is now chasing various churches for not producing their paedophiles on demand, for covering up thousands of cases of abuse, and convincing the innocent that they would be publicly vilified if they tell anyone that a priest was their abuser. And where is Jesus in all this .. still hung up on the cross, because he really needs to stay there otherwise we have no hope at all.

For all the agony that he suffered for us in those three hours or so he was crucified, we have given him two and half million+ hours more through our own thoughts and actions. When do you think it will be enough, and he can come down off the cross and help us to be the people we can be, through his example .. loving, kind, generous, forgiving, tolerant, peaceful, thoughtful, God filled? Sometime soon I hope.

In a world full of fear and hatred being a God-filled person and trying to ‘lead by example’ can be incredibly difficult, but that is no excuse for not trying. Jesus was a human being just like you and me. He put his life on the line for us, as a living example of what we can achieve, with a little determination, a touch of temper and a strong desire to change the world. He started small. Look at the society God chose to drop him into, and the challenges of no ‘mass communication’, apart from anything else. Word of mouth was the best form of advertising then, and it still is. Leading by example still gathers hearts and souls together. Now we have the internet, and tv and movies, and what do we produce .. more programs to create horror and fear .. just look at the nightly news and their focus on disasters ..

But then, I am getting off the topic again ..

When Jesus saved us he knew we were sinners and that we needed a representative between us and God, and so he put himself there, human fears and all. Can we make ourselves a representative who stands up for what Jesus believes in, although society might ignore us or laugh and make fun? Can we ask him to come down off that cross for each of us now? You see, when Jesus was alive, there was no Christianity, there was only God. Jesus was not Christian, he was not exclusive, or inclusive, he wanted to talk to everyone about his Creator. The Christian church is closing its door on its own reality right now, because it is run by sinners seeking Revelationianic outcomes, rather than the truly loving ones that Jesus taught us about. Because .. when you think about it for a moment .. you will realise that, if Vengeful Messiah ‘came’ now, heaven would be very empty, and most of us would be in hell, suffering with the demons. Where would you be?

Love & Peace
Ama

Vengeance is Mine!

Let me set the scene: a discussion on another site, with a person (A) who says that the Bible says s/he is justified to seek vengeance against another person (B), by cursing them .. literally using a spell. This person (B) had done the victim (A), and others s/he says, harm, and the curse had changed them (B) into a better, now God fearing, person. What do I believe? When I asked the caster (A) to remove the curse and forgive the person (B), s/he refused .. s/he said it had been God’s will that s/he had done it, and it would be God’s will when the curse came off, if it ever did. I suggested s/he removed it to see if it had been the curse that had forced the person (B) to change, or had the person simply chosen the happier path themselves? S/he (A) also refused to do this. S/he is still angry at the person for what they did to her/him. By her/his own admission s/he is unforgiving.

It got me thinking about the bible, and as usual, comparing the OT with the NT .. and so I dipped into both, via Strong’s Concordance .. and was flabbergasted at the amount of times the word revenge, avenge or vengeance was used by Strong’s, only to find them retranslated, occasionally, in my NOAB into retribution, or switched between avenged and revenged, or verses where it was removed completely and taken back to a better translation. What it showed to me was the mindset of the person who first did the translation of the Bible from the Hebrew and Greek that Strong bases his Concordance upon – Vengeance is mine! or is it? How do we justify vengeance when Jesus words ask us to choose another path?

Dictionary meanings –

Vengeance – Infliction of punishment in return for a wrong committed; retribution.
Idiom: with a vengeance
1. With great violence or force.
2. To an extreme degree.

Revenge – tr.v. re•venged, re•veng•ing, re•veng•es
1. To inflict punishment in return for (injury or insult).
2. To seek or take vengeance for (oneself or another person); avenge.
n.
1. The act of taking vengeance for injuries or wrongs; retaliation.
2. Something done in vengeance; a retaliatory measure.
3. A desire for revenge; spite or vindictiveness.
4. An opportunity to retaliate, as by a return sports match after a defeat.

Avenge – tr.v. a•venged, a•veng•ing, a•veng•es
1. To inflict a punishment or penalty in return for; revenge: avenge a murder.
2. To take vengeance on behalf of: avenged their wronged parents.

There is a lot of vengeance (revenge/avenging) going on in the OT, and lots of folk asking God for it, and joyfully naming God ‘vengeful’, and glorying in what God might do to their enemies. Isaiah said there is even a Day of Vengeance (34:8, 61:2, 63:04) (later Luke calls it ‘days’ 21:22 – wasn’t one enough?) Jeremiah calls it a Day of Retribution (46:10), but the meaning is the same. A day when harming others will not anger God? Oh yes, doesn’t Psalms advise us that “the righteous will rejoice when they see vengeance done; they will bathe their feet in the blood of the wicked ..”? But who decides who is wicked?

I guess if we all play ‘follow the leader’ seeking revenge/vengeance is not so surprising, given that Jehovah either did it, or threatened to, on a regular basis. Or, as one lady I know said, this is how the writers wanted believers to see Jehovah, as defending them when they were in strife, but .. what happened when they broke the rules .. the jealous God (Psalm 94:1, Proverbs 6:34) of Vengeance suddenly turned the tables and attacked them … look at Saul and his torment by an ‘evil angel from the Lord’ because he spared the life of one man. Was Moses being banned from the promised Land God’s revenge for disobedience, and then there is Jephthah having to sacrifice his daughter because of his promise to Jehovah, even though Abraham’s hand was stopped when he went to do the same to his son? Even Revelation demands it .. written after Jesus’ teachings – what was ‘John’ thinking? “Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth”? This is the Jesus that taught ‘turn the other cheek’ and ‘love one another’, it’s a puzzle that John ignored him.

But there was a quiet, very quiet, voice of reason within the OT. Leviticus 19:17 “You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against any of your people, but you shall love your neighbour as yourself ..”. And questions can be raised by Psalm 99:8 .. how a forgiving God can be an ‘avenger of their wrongdoings’? A person who forgives has no reason to seek vengeance; surely a God who forgives would be even less inclined to do so? After all, ‘he’ laid down the rules.

Jesus went up the mountain to speak to the people, to give them a new way of living, a new way of thinking about how they acted in their lives. He called us ‘the Light of the World’ (Matthew 5:14). He said our light should shine for others (5:16), but how can it when our hearts are filled with pain and darkness? 1 Sam 14:24 called casting a curse a ‘rash act’, and it is, for none of us can know the repercussions of our actions. Oh, we might see an immediate effect, and pat ourselves on the back for it, but what about the long term, and what about if we choose to continue to hate instead of loving, to glory in another’s pain, what then?

Jesus taught ‘if you are angry you are liable to judgment’ (Matt 5:22) and he disputed the old teachings of ‘an eye for an eye’ (Matt 5:38), which is what so many use as their excuse to do harm to others – ‘they did it first’ or ‘they hurt someone else’. He said “… do not resist an evil doer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also …” (Matt 5:39), and keeping turning, and walk away. He placed God’s love, and our place in heaven, far above any earthly concerns. He also said ‘be perfect … as your heavenly Father is perfect’ (Matt 5:48).

Ok, now I go back to shaking my head in puzzlement. The God of Vengeance is perfect, but we are not allowed to act like him? Which God was Jesus talking about? Oh I know, the one he called out to from the Cross .. EL, not Jehovah.

Jesus taught ‘forgive and keep forgiving’ (Matt 18:22). He did not teach ‘punish first, and then stay angry’. Paul continued the theme with a few add-ins .. Romans 12:19-21 “Beloved, never avenge yourself, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord. No, if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.”

In my opinion Paul needed to work on his ‘forgiving’ attitude, but I do understand what he meant. When you do good to others who would harm you, you can make them very angry. They want you to react from the same pain they are feeling; when you don’t, when you ‘love’ instead of hating .. you show them themselves in a very ugly mirror. If you will hold Love in your heart, instead of pain and fear, you become the Light Jesus wants us all to be, which he says we already are.

The bible is confusing people .. again. Who do we choose to follow when the OT teaches of a vengeful God, and the NT says “don’t be vengeful”, “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” (Luke 6:31), “Love one another as I have loved you” (Luke 13:34), “turn the other cheek”? I suppose it depends on our mood at time .. given that the Bible isn’t consistent as well? But I would rather follow Jesus .. consistently. So Vengeance isn’t mine, and nor do I think it is Jesus’ God’s first thought either. How could ‘He’ have said “love one another as I have loved you” if he was planning on judging us all in the near future (his version anyway) and sending most of us to hell?

But that’s another story.

Love & Peace
Ama

Dancing with the Word

Good afternoon all,

I was going to write about the concept of vengeance in the bible, OT & NT, but got distracted by a blog from Heather “Move from this Mountain” and then dropped in on Stephen’s Space where he has taken all my questions in my second post in September 2011 and answered them for me. That’s lovely. 🙂 Thank you. Given the busy-ness of the beginning of January, when he did that, if he told me .. I have forgotten, sorry .. so it was lovely finding it today. I tried to comment on his site, about one or more things he had written, but the comment box won’t work for me .. nor is the link at the bottom of his message active .. it goes to a blank page .. so Stephen, I am hoping you see this .. I wonder what happened, and if you can fix it?

So .. let me answer here:

Question #1: What are God’s books?

Stephen said: Note/Fact: Then God’s books would be God’s word or what God said, when God said it, where God said it, who God said it to, and how God said the word. I am going to show two places in the bible one from the (OT) Old Testament and one from the (NT) New Testament where the bible states that it is ”the word of God“

1 Samuel 9:26-27 (OT) (AKJV)
26And they arose early: and it came to pass about the spring of the day, that Samuel called Saul to the top of the house, saying, Up, that I may send thee away. And Saul arose, and they went out both of them, he and Samuel, abroad.
27And as they were going down to the end of the city, Samuel said to Saul, Bid the servant pass on before us, (and he passed on), but stand thou still a while, that I may shew thee the word of God.

Me: I go to my NOAB and look up the translations. This is what I have for 1 Samuel 9:27 “As they were going down to the outskirts of the town, Samuel said to Saul, “Tell the boy to go on before us, and when he has passed on, stop here yourself for a while, that I may make known to you the word of God.

Make known .. he didn’t pull out his copy of the book. In the next verse (10:1) Samuel took a vial of oil and poured it on Saul’s head, and kissed him and said “The Lord has anointed you ruler over his people, Israel” and Samuel told Saul of various signs that would prove this to be true. There is no comment about writing it down, and given the time period, it was probably unlikely to have been written down, but joined the oral tradition.

Well, in my opinion, Samuel definitely showed Saul God’s word, or said them anyway .. but this is not the ‘bible’ stating itself to be the Word of God.

***

1 Thessalonians 2:12-14 (actually 2:12-13)

Stephen’s translation: (NT) (AKJV)

12That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory. 13For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Note/Fact: There were forty-five exact matches to the phrase ”the word of God” and as stated above it is the word of truth.

Me: NOAB 12 ” .. urging and encouraging you and pleading that you lead a life worthy of God, who calls you into his own kingdom and glory. 13 We also constantly give thanks to God for this, that when you received the word of God that you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word but as what it really is, God’s word, which is also at work in you believers.”

I am not doubting there are 45 matches to the phrase “the word of God” but which one of them actually mentions a book – or the bible in its entirety, given that the Thessalonians were written a Letter by Paul hundreds of years before the Bible was put together. Add in, as Stephen says, that we now have the Dead Sea Scrolls to ‘add’ to what we know of as the books of God.

Question #2: What about the Torah, or the Quran?

Stephen: If they are the truth then “YES” they are the word of God, but if they are only part truth then “NO”.

Me: Fair enough, I agree. Only .. the Torah is the original five books of the Christian Bible .. I must admit I haven’t done a comparison of the modern Torah with our modern ‘first five books’ of the Bible, but Theologians acknowledge Christianity’s reliance on them for our foundations.

If they are only part true .. and what happens each time we find some mistake in our bible .. and it becomes ‘only part true’ .. do we turn a blind eye and pretend we didn’t find it .. which leads to ‘contradictions in the bible’ but we’ll get back to that later.

Question #3: But why, if their foundations remain the same?

Stephen quoted: Zechariah 12 (OT) (AKJV) Hebrews 1:9-11 (NT) (AKJV)
NOTE/FACT: The Lord laid the foundation of the earth, so I know who laid the foundation of the earth. That is who I believe. The same Lord that laid the foundations of the earth also spoke to Israel ( God’s people.) Their foundations can be considered the same if they are the truth and if they are the word of the Lord God.

Again I agree, but why do you doubt they are? “If” .. see my answer to question 2.

Question #4: Stephen has written a very good answer – which shows we all interpret words differently. The Mystery of God’s books, for me, is why there are so many things that contradict themselves within it, and yet people still consider it the ultimate and only ‘Word of God’.

Stephen said: The exact phrase or question (the mysteries of God) is found only one time in the (AKJV) of the bible, as stated above. The word mysteries was found five times. Based on I Corinthians 4:5 The Lord (God) when he comes will bring to light (make known) the hidden things of darkness, (the mysteries) then we will have praise of God. And according to Matthew 13:11 the answer to the disciples was that it was given to them to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, (God’s Kingdom).

Note/Fact: Then the answer is that God will reveal the mysteries to those who do not know, or to those to whom the mysteries have not been revealed when the Lord comes. The hidden things of darkness and the counsels of the hearts will also be made manifest (known),and then every man will have praise of God.

Lovely! Thank you Stephen.

Question #5: Who actually wrote them? Why people continue to think God wrote them when we have proof that people did?

Stephen said:
Genesis 1:3 God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Me: It’s a great pity he didn’t invent pen and ink, or carving in stone, at that time. Given He is God, we could have had computers. 🙂

Stephen: The author (Moses) that wrote Genesis is the person that wrote this down, and I can not find any place where God wrote this book or any book in the bible. This does not change the truth that the words recorded here were spoken by God. Men chosen by God were the means by which we receive the word from God.

Me: This is one of the reasons why I like you. 🙂 You can admit there’s a problem. I’ll add to it. We don’t know that Moses existed, because there are no records of him at all, while we have other records of the time period he lived in. If he did exist, and led the Israelites out of Egypt, and Pharaoh, who chased them, died in the sea .. why do we have his mummy in the British(??) museum? He should have been washed far away by the return of the sea. Perhaps the sea gave him back?

Stephen: Note/Fact: The exact quote = ”Let there be light” God said this and it is the part considered the Word of God. God did not write this down, but the fact that the light that still exists today is evidence that there is light. This action is proof that a miracle took place, or an action that no man can duplicate.

Can man duplicate making Light? The first spark .. I agree, I also believe that only God did that. Now we have electricity and splitting the atom.

Question #6: What are the contradictions within them?

Stephen: This is very controversial, so you can say that it has contradictions and therefore you can’t believe that it is the word of God or you can declare that it is the word of truth from God and believe all that it contains about God and what God said. ( AKJV ) The other versions and other religions contradict or omits parts of this version of the bible. I find this version the most accurate translation available.

Me: Start with this – http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_book.html I know its a site by skeptics but its not the only one, and they don’t just have a go at Christianity.

To me, because God is perfect, if this book was written by God, without the interference of humanity, it would have no contradictions. There would be no confusion. We would not need to edit, nor re-translate (just look at the difference between the various bibles available today, and your belief in your bible as the best translation, and mine being so different .. bought by me at Theology College as the best translation available to date), nor argue over bits and pieces of it, and have people invent things and adapt it .. which has been proved over the centuries. It seems to me that a person who declares their particular version of the bible as perfect, which I am sure mine isn’t, is covering their eyes with their hands and refusing to accept what has been proved to be fact. A book that contradicts your bible, or omits parts, might be because what was translated in yours was wrong to start with.

Question #7: What are the messages?

Stephen: The bible is a spiritual message to God’s people, a message from God, and the message is a message of Salvation, Comfort, Spiritual Guidance, Protection, Courage, Peace, Spiritual Strength, Warning, and Forgiveness.
Psalms 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Me: You list all the uplifting parts of the bible. How about people going to hell for one transgression, whether they try to be good Christians or not; Saul being tormented by an angel sent by ‘God’; Moses being banned from the promise land because he didn’t do exactly what he was told .. I can list much more. God help all of us – how many of us do exactly what the bible tells us to do .. have you taken your son up a mountain to sacrifice him to Jehovah yet? What would you do if God demanded it of you today? What would your son do? And what about the treatment God allowed of Job and his family? There’s one that’s hard to explain. But I’ve written about that just recently on my blog.

Question #8: Is Revelation a reality, or a well constructed slap at Nero for his treatment of the Christians during the persecutions?

Stephen: Note/Fact: Revelation is without a doubt a reality: Chapter #1 verse #1 God gave the Revelation of Jesus Christ to show his servants the things that must come to pass, and he also sent the Revelation by his angel to his servant John.

Me: I guess we’ll find out at end times, in the meantime .. 666 is the Gematric number (the sum total of the numbers of the letters of its name) for Nero, not the devil. The devil’s number is 616. Since the bible lists the devil as 666 .. there’s been a error somewhere.

Question #9: When did Christianity step outside the Jewish Laws, including diet and the Ten Commandments?

Stephen quoted from Romans, 1 Corinthians, and Galatians .. but left it to question 10 before partly quoting the words I would use to answer this question. He was quoting Paul, not Jesus. Given a choice of whose words to follow, which person will ‘save’ us?

Stephen said: Note/Fact: The Christian is not under the law, but under grace. The Christian should not sin, because they are not under the law. The Jewish law was to make a sacrifice for sin, but the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for all sin has been made. The Christian should keep the commandments of God.

I agree about most of the commandments … I’ve also blogged about that. Paul made it easy for the Christians, slipping them out of the laws, by only keeping the bits that suited him. Jesus said:

Matthew 5:17-19 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great int he kingdom of heaven”.

In question 10 even you agree that heaven and earth have not passed away yet. Was Jesus lying, or did Paul simply change the rules for himself?

Question #10: Has heaven and earth passed away, and what does it mean for Revelation?

Stephen: The answer to question ten is NO and there is no effect on Revelation.
Note/Fact: Only God (he that sat upon the throne) can make all things new. Heaven and earth shall pass away, and Satan is cast into the lake of fire, and there will be a new heaven and a new earth, but God’s word shall not pass away.

I agree the old will be replaced by the new, sometime in the future. I have research this question again because I have forgotten what it is about?

Question # 11 What is the war in heaven, and is it real?

After quoting various bits of Revelation Stephen said:

Note/Fact: The war in heaven was to cast Satan and his angels out, and the events are as real as the word of God. As above the word is true and faithful.

Me: .. so below “.. we wish it was”. Blind faith will not help us at the ‘accounting’. “I did what you said” will not save us when what we did turns out to be another man’s reinterpretation of the “Word”. Just look at situations like Waco.

The war in heaven is continuous, and manifests among the people (as above, so below), through real wars and personal battles within ourselves, with our families and friends, with entities we cannot see or touch, but they can touch us, and those who are criminally insane. We should stand steadfast within the faith of God, but not with blinkers on. If following the bible to the letter is the only way into heaven, we are all damned.

More questions? Oh yes .. I have questions. I have lots of questions. LOL

Thank you Stephen. I am sorry if I have not seemed kind, but I do appreciate very much that you took the time to answer my questions.

Love & Peace
Ama

When is murder not murder …

When is murder not murder? This thought occurred to me when I was asked the question “Is it safe to say you don’t see love–Jesus’ love–in the death penalty?” by Heather from Move from this Mountain, and I started typing notes to myself, between washing the floors and doing general cleaning. Let’s say the whole concept helped to create a lot of furious energy as I thought about the God of the OT, Jehovah, and his sixth commandment, which Moses brought down from the mountain for his people. My first question has to be .. didn’t it apply before Moses time? And then, didn’t it apply to the OT God at all?

Let’s briefly step back into the concept that the Bible is the unerring Word of God, written with no mistakes, add-ins or contradictions, a pure reporting of events of the history before most people could read and write, and from those writings we are supposed to know that God loves us truly and deeply, but not unconditionally, otherwise the entire population of the world in Noah’s time (except him and his family, and one pair each of most of the animals, not all of them) would not have been killed. Does drowning not constitute murder? If modern Western Laws are based on Biblical ones, it must be only loosely, because, by law, if you force someone to drown (say by pouring water over them to levels so deep that no amount of swimming stops them dying from exhaustion), then you have murdered them.

Or how about God saying to Saul, through Samuel, (1 Samuel 15:2-3) “I will punish the Amalekites for what they did in opposing the Israelites when they came out of Egypt. Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey”. I did a brief search and it seems it was only 400 years since that first attack. I don’t think I am being unfair in wondering why our ‘loving’ God was still angry four hundred years later, or worse, did he choose to act in cold blood? And why wait so long? How many generations of people had been born since then? Did they even remember what happened? Oh, I forgot – God will punish a person’s children to four generations if they turn from him .. no, that doesn’t fit, or does it? What God did ‘they’ worship?

Well, Saul obeyed, but not perfectly. He spared the King, and kept the best of the animals, and ‘all that was valuable”, and the reason for it … according to 1 Samuel 15:20-21 Saul saved the animals and valuables to sacrifice to his God, but burnt offerings were not enough .. God wanted every person He had created in that tribe, and was now angry at, dead – and one man still alive was one man too many. But what did the animals do to deserve this treatment?

Saul and his followers murdered an entire tribe for their God, because King Agag was murdered in the end, and what did Saul achieve for it .. to be terriorized into insanity by a ‘dark angel from the Lord’, the same Lord who demanded he murder all the people in the first place. You will understand why I have doubts about the ‘love’ of this ‘god’?

But the question was ‘Is it safe to say you don’t see love–Jesus’ love–in the death penalty?’ To me that asks ‘do you think Jesus would advocate killing someone just because they killed someone else’? The answer is no. Where is the love of Jesus, his forgiveness of sins, in giving someone a needle that stops their heart, or some other truly unpleasant death, and in doing so stops their ability to learn to be a better person in this lifetime, and to seek God’s forgiveness, if no one else’s, while alive? According to Christian teachings this person, man or woman, is going to go to hell, and be tortured in unspeakable ways .. and what do you learn from that? Where is God’s love in that? Justice, on the other hand, as a form of love, or balance, I can see – but its not for the victim, it is for those who remain behind. Is Jesus’ love found in the example of the lady here in Australia, who, after her daughter’s murderer was caught, forgave the man? Yes, she is a living example of love, and a truly strong and beautiful person and I have no idea if she is Christian.

I talked to my daughter about this question and she said that perhaps the victim was glad to have been murdered, because they did not have the courage to kill themselves. Is then the murderer not helping the person it murdered? How do we punish an act of kindness – because I can easily relate this to ‘assisted suicides’ of people with terminal illnesses. That was the act of Love, by a parent on the tv program I watched the other night on ‘Moses and the Laws’. The woman killed her son who was dying from a crippling illness. She smothered him with a pillow when he was half dead from an overdose of heroin, by his own hand. Would I have the strength to do that to save my children from suffering? I hesitate, but think yes. Would I kill someone who was trying to kill my child? Don’t put me in a position to choose .. because, for all that I think murder of any kind is unjustifiable, I do not know what I would do .. or perhaps I do. Anything can become a weapon used well, even words.

Jesus taught ‘turn the other cheek’, and ‘Love as I have loved you’, and yet … Should we apply this to a murderer, though I know that it might be hard for some people, but by asking for God’s help, perhaps we all could? Would it be enough to chop off the hand that used the weapon? It seems not, because, according to Jesus’ teachings (Matthew 5:28-30), we have to also chop off the mind that thought up the deed as well. It is justice, not love, that provides retribution for the family of the victim, because no one can ask the victim how they would see justice done, and so the courts of a country have to decide how a person is to be punished for their crime .. or their sin – and what is their example .. Exodus 21:23 “If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe,” and Jesus’ words in Matthew 5:29-30 “If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if you right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to go into hell”, and “but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart,” and I have read plenty of messages from people who apply the same to murder … so … as the Red Queen said ‘Off with his head …”

Love & Peace
Ama